Holidays

Dirk and I can never seem to spend them with Chane and Arwen due to work schedules. We will get next weekend with them align with their oldest son and his family who are here on leave. Looking forward to that.

Dirk worked Thanksgiivng as he usually has to. My sisyer and I wrnt out to eat again this year. I had nice time with her.

Then Dirk and I spent he whole day together Friday since we both had it off. We had a great time. Did a rehaul of our cellular plan, added line for the girlfriend of our youngest (she’s very much like a daughter-in-law) and got new phones. Only thing wrong there is somehow I’ve lost my voicemail but I’ll get that straightened out. We thrn went to our favorite sports bar and watched some football after which we splurged and wento our favorite special place to eat. One just he and I go to. It was a lovely day! And making love was very much included. That was lovely too since he’s had health problems lately.

So, I’m nit going to complain about not seeing our loves too much.

Franklin’s Map of Non-Monogamy

Check out this link. It’s rather interesting and entertaining at the same time.

Sex and Differences

I don’t often blog about sex. I more than admit that I like it and want it and find it in some ways essential. But, I don’t think I could end a relationship entirely over sex (or the lack thereof). It’s true that part of my attraction to someone is there attitude regarding sex and their ability to enjoy sex. Since learning to enjoy my sexuality after many years of repressing it (for reasons totally understandable), I find that sex is an important way of expressing myself. Whether that expression is love for a partner, the simple enjoyment of sex without love or whatever I want it to be.

This was Father’s Day weekend and I feel as if I received a gift instead of the guys. I was lucky enough to have individual time with both my men. And extra lucky for me, part of that time was engaging in sex! How lucky can one woman be?! Enjoying sex with either of them isn’t normally a rare occurrence, but occasionally the following just hits me and I revel in the ability and freedom to enjoy.

Part of any type of open relationship, no matter what you call it—-swinging, polyamory, open marriage, is the diversity of those you engage with. Today I’m strictly speaking of the diversity of those you engage in sex with.

My two men are so alike in may ways and I able to appreciate that. But they do have their differences and sex is one of those. Both are giving sexual partners thank goodness but for the most part that is where the similarities end. Some differences are:

They do not approach/broach sex with me in the same way.

They do not kiss me the same way.

They do not touch me the same way.

One is more vocal than the other.

One is more rough than the other.

They flirt with me differently.

They tell me they love me differently. In ways and in tone.

Still no explicit sex details for me here. I sometimes would like to do that better but I accept my writing limitations.

But, that wasn’t really my intention with this post.

I wanted to plainly state what is glaringly obvious to me at times…I’m so lucky! Poyamory has given us the chance to experience some very diverse relationships and that has truly enhanced our lives in many ways.

What Is Monogamy?

I follow the blog of a very thought provoking man and with this post he set my mind to thinking. Well mostly in the comments section with this question of his to another reader “Not that I’m trying to pick a fight with you but I am curious; You stated you believe Swing and Poly are different. Yet you and your partner, who you are in a poly relationship with, go to a Swing club. By default doesn’t that show an overlap, even a small one, between Swing and Poly?”

In response to that I wrote in a comment of mine “PP, while she may be poly and she swings with her SO, why does that make the two related or a like? How is swinging with a poly partner truly different than swinging with a mono partner? I’m not being confrontational here but more curious.”

To which PP asked me this “Your comment confused me pretty good though. You said “How is swinging with a poly partner truly different than swinging with a mono partner?” Most common definitions for Monogamy include sex with only one partner and/or marriage to one person during a period of time. Given that definition, how can you swing with a mono partner? By default if you were Monogamous then decided to Swing wouldn’t your relationship then be defined as something other than Monogamous because you have more than one sexual partner?”

I tired to state my reasoning in a short amount of space with this…”My husband and I had been monogamous for 20+ years when we started swinging. And until I read about a year after we started that swinging was considered a form of ethical non-monogamy I wouldn’t have even thought along those lines. But even then I did not really consider us “non-monogamous”. Sure we had sex with others but that didn’t really count as not being monogamous in my mind I suppose. (Because I can separate sex and love? Most likely.)

Now, enter emotions into the equation. A whole different story for me. While I found it easy to share my husband sexually, I did NOT find it easy to share him emotionally. That is where the concept of non-monogamy probably first entered the equation for me.”

I guess my thoughts and beliefs at the time were that swinging really didn’t define monogamy for us. We had sex with others but we did it together. While we didn’t keep a sexual act for just us…as in we wouldn’t do something with a sex partner but would only do that one thing with each other…we did reserve love for each other. Sure, if we saw someone for sex more than once the possibility for a friendship would generally be there, but friendship and romantic love are so different.  We showed our monogamy with our love not with sex.

I’m becoming aware on different levels that most people do not separate the two things…love and sex…when considering monogamy.

Until love for others entered the equation, I (I’m more than fairly certain that Dirk felt the same but these are MY opinions I share here) basically still considered us to be monogamous. So we were swinging as a monogamous couple.

If I were to swing again, either with just Dirk or with just Chane or in any other combination, I would now consider myself to be swinging as a poly individual involved in two poly relationships. While polyamory is a different mindset by far that monogamy, I don’t see swinging as a monogamous person different than swinging as a polyamorous person.

I see where the two camps, swinging and poly, overlap at times. I know people that are part of both camps (myself included) and people that do not want to enter the other camp at all. I can understand that mentality since I’ve been on the far end of the swinging camp that I didn’t want getting close to the middle much less the other end of the spectrum.

The term my fellow blogger has coined for what we were practicing while swinging is “Emotional Monogamy”. I believe that describes it exactly. Dirk and I have ridden the rode of total monogamy, to emotional monogamy, to polyamory. It has at times been a long and complicated journey but even through it all we’ve grown and opened our mind to things we would never have considered. We will never think the same as we did before.

I noticed on my friend’s blog that he also has a term call Accidental Monogamy which he defines as “The result of you and your SO not having any other partners for a while. You plan more and more time together and at some point realize you have been seeing only each other for a significant amount of time. Not something that happens on purpose, but instead happens naturally.”

I’ve heard some people comment that in this situation these individuals are not poly. IMO, that isn’t the case. I’ve said before that I believe poly is a state of mind more than something that has to be practiced all the time. Does the fact that the individuals are only in one relationship each at the moment mean they no longer believe in poly or want to be poly or that they would turn now turn down an opportunity to see someone else if they had one? IMO (as that’s all this blog is really about), that isn’t the case. If you’re happy at the moment, then great! Not everyone can say that.

I’m asked at times if I would live monogamously again. Sure, I could do that. I was happy while I did so. But, because I believe in polyamory now, would I really be able to call myself a monogamous person? Or a poly person living monogamously?

What Do You Believe Regarding Hierarchial Polyamory?

What is a primary relationship?

One that always comes first? A relationship that you will always choose over any other?

What makes a relationship a primary relationship?

The depth of love involved? Past experiences with a partner? Financial obligations? Or a combination of things?

Is it truly possible to have equal relationships with more than one person?

While I may not be able to answer all those questions I will attempt as many as possible. This is something that has been brought up in a few arenas lately and has been something I’ve been thinking over. All opinions are mine and can change if I find an aspect I didn’t consider originally to have an affect on my opinion.

I believe that a primary relationship is one that for a variety of reasons will always come first. I do not believe that a primary relationship is exclusive of loving more than one person to the same depth. I don’t believe that a primary relationship means each partner is of different importances.

I believe that a relationship will be/can be primary for reasons other than emotions. I believe that past experiences can relegate a relationship to primary.I believe that financial obligations can do the same. For example, in my life, Dirk would be a primary relationship. I have been through so many bonding experiences within our 28 years together. We were engaged before we graduated high school so, we grew up together. We have 2 children together and we lost a baby together. We’ve supported each other through some life changing decisions. We have a mortgage together. We even, at the moment, are struggling financially together.

Compare that to what I’ve been through with Chane. We’ve been together 3 1/2 years. We were well into our adult years when we met. We will not have children together and had basically raised the children we have with our spouses before we met so, we do not have to ensure we work through our child-rearing beliefs to reach compromises. We have been through a few life changing decisions. Our finances are not combined in any way.

So, to an extent, I would consider my relationship with Dirk to be a primary one. He considers it so and wants it to be so. All of this therefore ensures that I do treat it as primary.

Why wouldn’t I consider one primary over the other? Well, because I love them both so much. If I had the freedom for my relationship with Chane to reach its full potential, I believe there wouldn’t really be a way to differentiate between how I felt about them. Any reserve I have in allowing my feelings full reign for Chane are due to limitations in our relationship and my attempt at finding a way to live with those.

If I shared financial obligations with them both it would also be harder to consider one relationship as more important than the other. That’s a huge thing to consider. Sharing financial obligations requires trust. Trusting someone that much is a commitment of sorts.

I have trouble putting one of their needs over the other. Well, normal every day needs. Not needs that are born from a crisis or something along those lines. There are just times that one or the other needs me the most.

I often wonder how we fit into primary and secondary roles when I’m called upon to state my opinion of what we have. Labels help clarify things for generalities but can be limiting as well. Due to the fact that part of our quad is only comfortable with primary and secondary relationships, I really can see things from both sides of that coin if needed. I see how secondaries can feel about the limits of that relationship type and I can see how primaries can find it frightening to consider someone else is just as important. Particularly when a long established relationship is involved.

When I changed my mindset from monogamous to polyamorous I feel I completely changed it. For me that was a necessity to fully be able to deal with some things. Therefore, I believe that each relationship should be able to reach its full potential without limitations. That may mean it never gets past a “secondary” role or that could mean it becomes equal to the “primary” role. The most important thing is allowing each relationship to go where it will. To not place limitations on relationships. To treat each other with respect while allowing full relationship growth.

While I don’t expect my relationship with Chane to be equal to his primary relationship with Arwen, I do expect equal say in MY relationship WITH him. I expect to not be told where my relationship with him can and can’t go. I do not always get this. And truthfully, if I were entering a new relationship with the knowledge I now have from mistakes and all, I would insist on this. This would probably be a deal breaker for me.

I’d like to hear your opinions on the topic.

Poly Group

Last week our poly group had it’s monthly meeting. We loosely tried to discuss the topic of communication.

We didn’t fully stay on topic because we had someone with a lot of general questions regarding polyamory. She had good questions. And they led to some very interesting discussions some of which did have to do with communication.

This was a very good meeting. We had good conversation and we had one of the highest attendances ever.  One lady found us through “detective work” and another couple traveled several hours to attend.

Our meetings have gotten bigger, been fruitful and I hope they continue to be so.

Now we need a topic for next month. 🙂

Grieve the Fairy Tale

Disclaimer: I could just be in a bit of a confrontational mood or a contemplative mood so you might should keep that in mind while reading this.

I’ve been reading some threads on the forums I frequent about established couples–originally mono–who in some, way, shape or form have come to be considering polyamory. Whether they both discussed it before exploring or one partner found someone else and asked the other half of the couple to try poly, or one half of the couple cheated and was caught and now wants to be poly.

Usually, the half of the couple that is being asked to make the adjustment to poly feel that their established relationship should be “primary” in every sense of the word. Not just finances and things like that. The person wants guarantees that no one will harm the core/primary relationship. That it will always be first, etc., etc. I get that, I do. I understand wanting the reassurances. I’ve been there at one point. I really have. But, truthfully, what are those reassurances worth? Particularly depending on how you came to be trying poly out.

For example, we can use Dirk and I.

I won’t go through the back story as it is recorded already. Take into account that the promises given to me from Dirk for 20+ years basically amounted to nothing when it came down to it. So, what good is it to me for him to give me similar promises and reassurances now? Are they going to mean more this time? I very much doubt that. Bottom line is, no matter what promises he may utter, and actually believe, he really can not guarantee me anything at all. That’s the end of it. There are not guarantees at all.

Now, because I’ve learned that the fairy tale is not true, I have to face reality. The no guarantees thing. Where does that leave me? Deciding what risks (mostly emotional) I am and am not willing to take. I now know that there are more deal breakers for me than I was aware of as a mono person. What deal breakers am I going to go with? What can I narrow them down to? I have to re-evaluate my life and my beliefs in light of what reality is and not want I was taught to believe. That’s at times a difficult thing to accomplish.

So, for those who I come across that feel as if the reassurances are the answer, should I tell them that I don’t believe it is really doing much good to receive those promises and reassurances they are asking for? To let them know that I feel the reason they may be having trouble getting past some things is because, deep down, they know they are getting worthless reassurances. That to become really ok with things they, themselves, have to get into a different mindset. They have to go through the grief process for the fairy tale. And then decide if they can live/embrace poly or not. If they can’t, I do not feel that they can live happily with someone who identifies with poly.

He Confuses Me

Dirk just confuses me sometimes and leaves me wondering about things. (To be honest, both my men do but this is about Dirk.)

He seems to be fine with things again. I asked him what had changed and he told me that I was being affectionate with him again. Truly? Maybe. I guess. I know that I have made an effort toward that because that was one of his complaints. And it’s been a conscious effort because of the issues I’m worried about that affect our life and he has had control over but not taken care of. Part of the consequences I feared would happen did happen Thursday. The initial consequence wasn’t as bad as I imagined it would be, however, the end result may be just as bad. Until he gets this thing settled, there is no way to settle another issue that could have consequences for me as well as him. Direct ones for me and not indirect. Worry and stress affect me to many degrees in my everyday life.

Now, Dirk did have a bit of jealousy last night. Not in regards to me really. Chane and I had a date but I also had my grandson to watch. Chane and I took him to see How To Train Your Dragon in IMAX 3D. Dirk would have loved to have been there. When we went to bed last night, he said, isn’t it weird that I don’t have a problem with sharing my wife but sharing my grandson is different?

Well, yes and no. First, he wasn’t really jealous. He was envious and sad he had missed the experience since he was at work. Second, Dirk absolutely adores his grandchildren. Third, we aren’t allowed anything to do with our first one. Because we miss out on seeing him grow up, we are more careful about making sure we don’t miss out on more than we have to with this grandson.Like Dirk says, we still love the first one just as much, and it is still difficult after these years not to be in his life. Because we know the heartache of that, small things with our younger grandson mean so much more to us. Particularly Dirk. He likes children in general more than I do. Do not get me wrong, I love my children and grandchildren. I do not regret having children, but I could have been happy without them. I’m not one of those women who needed children to be complete. Dirk, though, I’m not sure he could have had a truly happy life without the children. The only thing that could have made his child experience better was if we could have had a daughter as well.

Ok, Ok, back on topic. What exactly does Dirk want and feel about things? I don’t know for sure any more if he is truly comfortable with things. Maybe as they are now but, since we’ve discussed things going further, that hasn’t happened. Is he still ok with the concepts we previously discussed? Since they haven’t come about yet, is he now comfortable as things are? Do I now need to talk to him before I can have a talk with Chane? I feel that I do. I do not feel we talk as much as we used to. Well, that we have true communication the way we used to.  It is concerning me to be frank. I do not feel that the conversation that I’m waiting to have with Chane can be as effective as it needs to be until I’m once again sure about Dirk’s comfort zone and where he is ok with things going between Chane and I.

Do I want too much? Should I just be comfortable with the casual area our relationships have landed? I truly do not know if that is possible. If my relationship with Chane had not reached the depth that it had, I could more than likely live with the casualness of things now. But I just do not know if I can go backwards with things. If I can have what amounts, to me, as a FWB relationship with Chane. If I have to get rid of some of the feelings and not all of them, I do not know if that is possible.

Dirk and Arwen are not close any more. I do not see the urge from either of them for things to be that way. I stay confused. By all of this but the priority confusion at this time is with Dirk. Where is he at in the whole scheme of things? I need to get to the bottom of things. I need to stop living a confused life.

Forgive My Fear

By Ryan Chokureva

I walk on space,
On air so thin
I fear to fall.

Dear God forgive me
For my fear to love
For being so small
In a world so big
Forgive me for not wanting pain
For seeing it first before joy

I know I shouldn’t look first,
At how easily I bruise
Or harden my shell to outside touch,
Or hide within my self,
Or stare with dead eyes

Forgive my fear
Of reaching out over empty spaces,
For taking all the love you give
And giving nothing in turn

When next I shy, nudge me to try
When next I sigh, nudge me to smile
When next love needs, steady my feet
That I may be here,
To brave my fear.

Is Dirk Reverting Back to the Way He Was or Hasn’t He Even Changed?

I’m a bit upset tonight. It started last night and I’ve not posted until I felt I could do so more calmly.

Dirk is feeling that I love Chane more than I do him again. He feels that I don’t tell him the truth about this. That I am not even truthful to myself about this. Why are we going through this again? Why has he let this build? I think it is related to sex. That I try to make sure I’m with Chane when I get the chance. No matter if I’m feeling top-notch or  not. Well, yes, I do. I would expect him to do the same with Arwen. We get three nights a month with them. All on the same weekend of the month.

I’m going to need to talk with him about what is bothering him again. I hope he is more calm when we do.Some of the things he said were the very same things he said when he was having his worst issues about my relationship with Chane. Has he just been telling me, and himself, that he is ok with things? Is all this still a problem for him? I don’t know if I can go back and deal with these things again. To be honest, I believe I will resent it. I’ve resented, or at the least found them hugely ironic, the things he’s had issues with. We wouldn’t be in this situation if not for him. I’ve strode with all I have to not put him through what I went through.

He asked this of me. He wanted it when he felt he had a deeper feelings for Arwen. Changing my mindset about accepting poly has lead to me fully embracing the lifestyle. So, I have things I want and need out of my relationship with Chane. Just because he may not, or doesn’t, have the same wants and needs he did with Arwen for a couple of years, does not mean I don’t want those with Chane. I often wonder why he’s always had double standards.

I’m confused and hurting a bit. He’s been telling me and telling me how ok he is with everything. Even that I would like to spend one overnight with Chane a week. Last night he wasn’t ok with that. He tells me, as he used to, that it is all about the sex with me. Totally untrue and totally the pot calling the kettle black.

I’m a little lost right now. I had come to take Dirk for his word because he used to get so upset with me when I questioned if he meant what he said. I don’t know if I can do that right now.

I know it is ok to have insecurities crop up. I know he hasn’t been willing to talk with me lately the way he had started to. I’ve even commented on that to him and asked him why.

I never understand why something is ok for him to do if he wants to and not ok for me to do. I’m afraid to go on my date with Chane Friday night. I have to take my grandson on the date but still I’m unsure if I should go or not.

I’ve been talking about the issues I feel Arwen has been having and telling Chane that I believe Dirk when he tells me things are ok.

Dirk has also said I’m happier with Chane. That I laugh more around him than I do Dirk. I live with Dirk. We have some very stressful things to me going on in our life right now. Things that Dirk has contributed to and not put to right as he should have. Ive explained for months and months how I feel about these things. I really think them going unresolved has lead to the blood pressure problems. And Dirk has to know that his unwillingness to address and fix these issues has to make me feel he doesn’t care. He knows how they are stressing me and he refuses to do anything about them.  These are big things.

And there are small things as well. Example…there are some things around the house that I’ve asked him to fix. You know a honey do list. He procrastinates and procrastinates until the problem is worse than it originally was and harder to fix. Yet all Arwen has to do is ask once and he makes sure he fixes the things around her house that she asks for. I usually just let this go. But really, when he can’t do the big things that are causing me stress nor the small things that he does for Arwen and needs to do at his own home, what am I supposed to think? And wouldn’t those things affect my relationship with him in some way? He knows me. I back off when I feel someone doesn’t care about what I want and need. I distance myself. It’s how I deal with the feeling that someone doesn’t want me around or that I am not important to them.

Oh well, enough of this on here. I think this is going to have to be something I write about in my traditional journal. I need to get things out that are too private for me to feel comfortable sharing it all here.